Recco

bandit wrote:

AllyG wrote:[ It's amazing how they work without batteries.

Ally

They don't work. there is nothing in a Recco Reflector that could work. It's just a reflector, it's passive. I have read anecdotal reports that mobile phones work just as well as Recco reflectors for the search units to lock onto.

Bandit,
I think they are very clever. Apparently a Recco 'reflector' is an 'electronic transponder with a copper aerial and a diode'. This is what it says on 'recco.com':

The RECCO® reflector is permanently affixed to skiers and snowboarders while they are recreating in the mountains. The small piece weighs less than four grams and is designed into commercially available outerwear, helmets, boots and protection gear. This ensures the reflector won't be left in the car, stashed mistakenly in the lodge or forgotten at home. It is a non-powered device, meaning it never needs to be switched on, will never loose signal strength and needs no batteries to function. It requires no maintenance and has a virtually unlimited lifespan.

The actual component is a small electronic transponder with a copper aerial and a diode. Similar to a thin, printed circuit card and surrounded by protective weatherproof plastic, it is factory mounted to the exterior of gear that is unlikely to be torn off in the event of an avalanche. The reflector is engineered to sit slightly raised from the body and is placed in a specific external configuration for optimal reflection in the event of a burial.

The two-part technology operates on the frequency-doubling principle. The RECCO reflector bounces back the directional radar signal to the searcher and doubles the frequency, allowing the operator of the RECCO detector to actually hear where the burial is located. This enables rapid pinpointing of the signal and tracks searchers on a direct path to the burial. The reflectors are most effective when worn on a helmet or in pairs–pant and jacket or left and right boot–due to the unpredictable orientation of avalanche burials.

AllyG wrote:How much does the other bit of it, the transceiver or whatever it's called, cost?

Ally

I was under the impression that they were given to ski resorts if they requested them. They are too big to carry for personal use.

Tino wrote:Here a transeiver or recco system will not help. So what can I do? I've been toting with avalung for a while, but a part of me thinks this may only prolong the agony in said set of circumstances. Is there any way of reducing risk here? Or is it a simple condition of the pleasure I seek?

A transceiver will, usually the back country areas you ski will be frequented by plenty people (who will also be carrying them) who will be able to locate you quickly. Many people are taken alive from avalanche debris each year. There is a video somewhere of a guy being stuck under the snow and being dug out... I'll find it.

Edit: here we go http://vimeo.com/6581009

The recco (as has been said) is a passive device. It works the same as the anti theft stuff in shops and the same as the microchips buried in the a dogs neck. It needs a decent signal to bounce back. That said it's in a lot of resorts and clothes..so there is some chance of being located. You should get/hire transceivers if you're doing any serious off-piste skiing and ideally hire an experienced guide also. The number of tales of good guides & instructors getting caught in avalances should tell you something of the risk.... Prince Charles was caught out a few years back and you can't tell me that his guide was inexperienced ! If you want a bit more you could try browsing the pistehors site.

Ally, I reckon they probably have the same marketing company as Marks and Spencer.

Bandit,
I think they are very clever. Apparently a Recco 'reflector' is an 'electronic transponder with a copper aerial and a diode'. This is what it says on 'recco.com':

The RECCO® reflector is permanently affixed to skiers and snowboarders while they are recreating in the mountains. The small piece weighs less than four grams and is designed into commercially available outerwear, helmets, boots and protection gear. This ensures the reflector won't be left in the car, stashed mistakenly in the lodge or forgotten at home

Parts of this statement are not true. I have a pair of Recco branded Reflectors which have never been attached to anything. In fact they were sold as a pair in a bag by S&R in the UK. I could say these were engineered to be flat, utterly flat. At one time I do recall Recco reflectors being offered as freebies.

Wiki has this to say about Transponders...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder

The bottom line for me is that if you equip yourself with a Recco, then you tell the world that you don't care about the survival of anyone else. Lets face it, if someone you are with is wearing a Recco Reflector, you won't be able to locate them with yours.
Most back country/slack country/side country skiers who wear Transceivers will stop and give assistance when a slide happens, (because they can).

Meanwhile, I've upgraded my beacon from Analogue to Digital, so if anyone wants an Ortovox F1 Focus Set, drop me a pm.

Trencher wrote:Recco is normally within minutes of the scene if an avalanche did happen

That's only ever going to be true for an "in bounds" avalanche that's spotted immediately in a resort that has a Recco receiver!

Trencher wrote:unlikely any one would have a transceiver on the scene much faster.

:?:

Unless, of course, you and your group have them with you. Your absolute best chance of getting out of an avalanche alive is companion rescue and, as bandit pointed out, that needs you (and your companions) to have transceivers (and shovels and probes and practice, etc... ).

It's worth repeating the oft-observed (but critical) difference between American and European resorts with regard to off-piste skiing here. Off-piste in Europe is anywhere beyond the edges of the marked runs - immediately beyond those lines there is no guarantee a slope is safe. Folk are killed within resorts every winter.

If your clothing / boots comes with Recco fitted then that's fine - no point in cutting it out - but it won't help your friends dig you out while they wait for help that may be a long time coming.

I rather think they're probably transponders in our clever ski pass cards as well. I read somewhere that they had thought to put the Recco technology in the ski passes, but the problem is that so many people drop them. So they put them on jackets, helmets and ski boots etc. instead (not skis because they get lost on the mountain as well).

I think everyone should have Recco on them somewhere - I mean they do occasionally have avalanches on-piste, or just off the piste, and people caught up in those (like me, for example) would be unlikely to be carrying proper avalanche gear. I also read somewhere, probably on that Recco site, that they put Recco detectors around the resort so that rescuers can get to them quickly and use them to find people.

I don't think it's like the helmet argument, because you'd never know you were wearing anything with Recco incorporated into it, unless you read the small print, so it doesn't alter your appearance or anything. And, obviously, if you were going 'really off-piste' you'd be advised to go with friends and take all the avalanche gear with you (like probes, shovels, ABS pack, avalung, transceivers, clinometer and compass etc.).

I don't know over what distance the Recco system works, but apparently analogue transceivers only work over 20m and digital ones over 10m, so you've either got to have a lot of people with their transceivers in search mode looking for you, or someone has to have a pretty good idea of where you are.

Do you turn your transceiver onto transmit before you start ski-ing off-piste? Presumably one in the 'off' mode is no use at all.

Pistehors.com says:
The Recco (http://www.recco.com) system is a passive search device. A small circuit board is sewn into clothing or glued onto the boots. It has the advantage that the the circuit doesn't need batteries and can't be forgotten or turned off. To be effective the rider should always wear two reflectors on both sides of the body.


Now where did I leave those ski boots?

However the system requires special equipment and although this is available in many ski resorts the rescue services must first transport it to the avalanche site. This delay is critical and therefore the system should not be considered by riders going far from the pistes.

Edit
The Ortovox D3 digital avalanche transceiver says it has a range of 40m
Ally

bandit wrote:Plenty of folks ride and ski alone. The ones that survive tend to be well educated in Mountain skills

EFA 8)

W.r.t. to your F1 - keep it for practice! If we get another hard winter next year you could leave it in the car to help you find it each morning... :wink:

AllyG wrote:if you were going 'really off-piste'

It's often said... "a little bit off-piste" is like being "a little bit dead". You are or you aren't.

AllyG wrote:I don't know over what distance the Recco system works, but apparently analogue transceivers only work over 20m and digital ones over 10m

Ortovox claim 80m for their analogue models (M2 and F1) and 40m for the D3. There are a few models on the market with both analogue and digital for best of both.

AllyG wrote:Do you turn your transceiver onto transmit before you start ski-ing off-piste? Presumably one in the 'off' mode is no use at all.

Most of the popular models automatically turn on and into transmit mode when you clip them on. When you undo the clip they switch straight into search mode (to save time). Turning them off accidentally is (usually) difficult to do by design.

Leaving your transceiver in your car tends to defeat most designs however... :oops: