This might create a bit of controversy. . .

To put it simply: What should the stance of a skier, who is carving effectively, be? I have been able to ski at my local resort several times a week for the last few weeks. I have been working very hard on my carving skills. I find that I need a fairly wide stance, and a steep edge angle to carve. But, in my observation of other skiers - I see very upright stances with skis fairly close together. Virtually none are "really" carving. Most of the time skiers who appear to be "good" are starting out with a nice carve, and at the apex of their turn are skidding through the rest of their turn. Even most of the instructors I see aren't consistently carving.

So, is it possible to carve with skis close, and an upright stance, or am I actually doing OK with my method?

I just started to learn slalom (short turns) carving 2 weeks ago with my brand new ATOMIC Metron 10 (164sm). I can confirm virtually no one carving short-medium turns, many "experts" just go for high-speed GS type of skiing where carving really not a problem.

Excellent question which has no set answer.

Here is mine.

Be comfortable and effective. Let me explain.

One of the key techniques all expert skiers have mastered is independent ski action and weight transfer from one ski to another. To do this you must feel comfortable with both skis apart. I vary my "apart distance" depending on terrain, ski conditions and speed I go! There is no set rule.

The key is to be an effective skier; that is use minimum body strength to get maximum ski performance.

Now back to "carving issue"!
It is simple to determine if a skier truly carves the turns. Just look at trace on snow! If you see two sharp clear lines at all phases of the turns,,,,,you have a carving skier. Now if you really look carefully at those two lines you will notice that the inside line is not as deep and not as wide as the outside line. That is because most of the skier weight should be on the outside ski!

Two simple moves must be done to do this.

1. move knee inward to set turning ( downhill ski) ski on edge
2. flex boot of same leg forward to place pressure on tip section of ski ( and hold this pressure throughout the turn)

Now here is what 90% of skiers do wrong! They do not hold this pressure during complete turn. Yes they start the turn then they either lean back ( thus are behind the skis) or they release the pressure on the downhill ski.

There is a "trick" that racers do that most recreational skiers do not know. I do not recommend this to any beginner and intermediate skier! But if you are in the "expert" level you can hold that ski until it is at the very end of the turn ( near tail) and release it quickly! The ski will shoot you out of the turn like an arrow in a bow! This is called a "jet turn" and is used by all World Cup racers!
Again this is not for beginner skiers to do!

Carving can be GS type turns or SL type turns! Clearly the SL type turns demand greater balance and weight transfer. I teach carving by using medium speed with a GS turn. Gradually ( without the learner realizing it) I make the turns more SL!

Again an effective and correct "carving" turn means that the ski is on edge AT ALL TIMES and there is constant pressure on the ski edge.

Hope this helps you!

As pavelski says, there is no set rule for stance width and for me depends on conditions and need.

Racers will often adopt a seemingly wide stance and this makes sense, in that they are looking to increase stability and reduce risk often on icey and rutted courses. I prefer a medium stance for free carving, but this is really only in the transitions. Once your legs start to incline beyond a certain point, the skis must move farther apart. How far the skis move apart depends on how extreme you tilt them.

It takes a while to get the inside ski out from underneath you and trust your edges (two of them). At some point you may discover boot out from the inside boot once it starts getting out there.

Angulation gives stability.To start angulating you will need to adopt a little hip counter. This means that the hips face a little toward the outside of the turn. (Interestingly in that extreme carving snowboard video, you will see little angualtion)

Most skiers, even those that carve well, will only carve a turn through 60 to 90 degrees. The real joy of carving is taking the turn beyond that and railing through 120 to 180 degrees. The forces are greater and so is the thrill.

Most skiers talk about pressuring the ski. What beomes more important is how much downward pressure you can apply to the edge/s. This is an equal and opposite reaction physics thingy. You have a big mass, your body and to lift it up a little, you have to press downwards on the ski edges. This is a downward pressure, not an outward pressure. Here's the weird part, the lower your body is, the more pressure you can apply and the more your edges grip. You will also need outward pressure on the ski (esp the front) to flex the ski and determine somewhat the turn shape. I like to think of these two presures seperately - downward and outward. What makes a lot of skiers skid the end of the turn is (in part) that they are standing so tall, that they can't maintain the downward pressure). Just your weight is not enough to do it at the end of a turn when the forces are greatest.

There are basically two ways to apply this downward pressure.
First is a "cross over" turn. Named because the body crosses over the skis during transition. In this turn the skier stands tall at transition, but sinks into the turn and rises out to transition again. The important point to understand is that "the sinking" is downward not outward. The sink must happen very fast - as soon as the skis are on the new edges.
The second way is a "cross under" turn. Here the skier has legs flexed at transition and actively extends the legs outwards and downwards as the skis roll onto the new edge. The body shouldn't rise through this extension of the legs.
In both turns, there should be little weight on the skis at transition and and the edge change should be fast.

I hope that makes some sense. Like so many skills, it's a matter of finding the trigger to understanding. If it's hard to find good models to copy, try resorts that have the most racing, which tend to have the most ski carvers off the race courses as well.

I'm loath to link to this video, as this was my first time out this season and shows it. Certainly not a model for the best technique. It does show my stance width and the difference between turns that are purely inclinated (due ot some lower back pain, fun, but less stable) and those with some hip counter/angulation.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5521147838682881679&q=ski+carving+-+no+poles&hl=en

Trencher

Dshenberger wrote: Most of the time skiers who appear to be "good" are starting out with a nice carve, and at the apex of their turn are skidding through the rest of their turn. Even most of the instructors I see aren't consistently carving.

So, is it possible to carve with skis close, and an upright stance, or am I actually doing OK with my method?

You don?t have to carve your turns to be skiing well, carving is just another aspect of skiing that the new shaped skis have facilitated. There is an obsession on this board that you are skiing incorrectly unless you are carving, this is not the case! As an instructor I would say that a good pivoted (skidded) turn is much more technical than just putting your skis on edge and letting the skis? sidecut do the work for you. Modern pivot turn technique does use the skis? sidecut to an extent (when pressure is applied to the edges at the end of the turn), but much of the steering comes from the hip joint.

Pure carving IS great fun but is not possible on all parts of the mountain. For example you would not be able to carve through a tree lined run, a mogul field or a busy piste since your turn shape is restricted by the turn radius on your skis.

In response to your question about wide stance, yes modern technique does recommend a wide stance for more stable balance (particularly on hard pack). People who ski with their feet together are stuck in the 80s/90s.

Yes, Pavelski, that consistent forward pressure is hard to maintain! :) Especially when I let my turns get too long. Now I am wondering about SL turns vs. GS turns. Can one really do SL type turns on steeps, yet keep a "safe" speed? I know this is very subjective, but if I am making very short, quick turns on a steep trail I find my speed getting WAY out of hand! I find that the steeper the trail, the more width I need to use to stay in control.

Trencher - Thanks for posting the video. :) It makes me feel like less of a dork for getting low, and using lots of knee/hip angulation. Not that I am near your level, but I feel like I am on the right track. I certainly feel that the lower I am the more edge grip I have, but isn't that because I am forcing more of an edge angle? And I find that the faster I go the faster my transitions need to be. Duh!! Also, since I am so light weight (150 lbs) I theoretically need more edge angle to get the ski to flex, right? Oh yeah, I am skiing 168 cm 14.4m radius.

And Ben, I have to admit I find myself having to skid to avoid those muddy patches that are cropping up everywhere! Also, at my level, I do a good bit of skidding trying to safely avoid collisions, and keep my distance from EVERYONE! But when I have a clear path. . . :)

Thanks to all who take the time to post! "They" say that you can't learn from reading, but I have progressed tremendously from reading, and trying to apply "new" ideas every time I ski!

Dshenberger wrote:
And Ben, I have to admit I find myself having to skid to avoid those muddy patches that are cropping up everywhere! Also, at my level, I do a good bit of skidding trying to safely avoid collisions, and keep my distance from EVERYONE! But when I have a clear path. . . :)

Now you are getting into the philosophical part of carving. For me the joy is in linking carved turns. Having to make some skided turns around other people just ruins the run for me. The commitment to a serious carved turn makes mid turn direction changes difficult. So I stop and wait for the crowd on the run to thin out. Then I can really go for it. There are carvers on skis and boards, and then there are skiers and boarders who can carve.

Trencher

Actually, what I found out just based on my 2 days "self learning SL carving", that every carved SL turn accelerated my speed (feels like "jet turn" as described by Mr. Pavelski) , this is opposite of old technique, where each turn slows me down, so my question - how to control speed in this case? Make longer turns? Any ideas? Thanks. :-)